Hello, Why can't we explain to the mashines...

[d4sh]

Hello anAuthoroftheMashine, glad to see you have found the TGS-forums!

Just to inform you: We are on very good terms with the Machine-Organization
and in return for our loyalty they provide us with about anything we ask for;
Luxurious HvCFT's with widescreen, dolby, leather seats, the newest guns.. you name it, we can get it.
We get priviliges and respect both within the Matrix as in Zero-One, and they consider us valuable assets.

We do not work as slaves for the machines; they need us, and we need them. We work together!


sidenote:
I really think you should get your grammar fixed..
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"d4sh is half robot, half Dutch and half ninja." - M0RGAN | "Dashy is hardcore, he danced in the flames." - Gookin

[Procurator]

I second d4sh. You seem to falling into the trap that the Zionists do: they don't personally interact wiith the Machines or their Agents, so they have no idea how they treat us, and default to imagining them as manipulative, overbearing meanies. This is far from the truth.

As d4sh said, they are extremely rewarding, and while Agent Gray is sometimes a little patronising, it's only because of his outdated programming. A new version, Agent Pace, was created some time ago to be a more friendly interface between the Machines and we, their operatives.

The Machines of Zero-One have less respect for the humans of Zion because they see most of them as being the primitive, arrogant cavedwellers from from the pre-Truce days. While this is mostly true, the number of humans joining the Machine cause are opening their eyes, and proving that not all humans are rooted in the past. Therefore, operatives such as ourselves are working for both Man and Machine.

As for the Zionists not trusting the Machines, that's their problem. A handful of Zionists are more sensible than that, and they are doing their best to convince the others. We can't go to Zion ourselves because we are (erroneously) branded as traitors.
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[anAuthoroftheMachine]

Ok, there you go...

Sorry for the trouble again, but I gess the modulators have to get rid of "anAuthoroftheMashine" so I can supply my real email. Tell me when...
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[RockyB]

256MB of RAM? Dude, you're going to have a serious problem playing with that amount. The minimum you want is about 768MB, 1GB would be recommended.
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[TheTaxidermist]

Visual basic rules, I just wish I had a command list so i could do something with it
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[bodeca]

i hope I'll be forgiven for reposting a post from last year, but since it was on the old forum, not many people around will have seen it. Here goes nothing...

anAuthoroftheMashine machines are not trustworthy, but this doesn't mean it's ill advised to ally with them and this is my best shot at why...

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

We all have different reasons for being machinists, but interestingly I had a 2 hour conversation, while killing time dungeoning, with two Zionists about this last night. One fell into the standard inconsistent zion responses and couldn't hold an argument, the other one, more intelligent by far than I am, has promised to do machine missions from now on - we'll see.

In any event, for me, there is a single difference between machinists from which all other differences are derived:

Zionists believe the machines can be defeated now or soon to retun the planet to humans

Machinists believe that machines can be defeated only in the future when we are better prepared than we are now OR NEVER...and that attempting to defeat them now will only cause the destruction of Zion and in so doing, force humans to forget all they have learned to this point. We survive for the present.

My next point may now be heresy, perhaps you will believe me to be a disillusioned Zionist, but I have come to believe that Machinists are the true protectors of Zion who by foiling Zionists in their shortsighted, or short term actions prevent them (the Zionists) from causing its destruction. Whether or not you believe this second point is by the by to my discussion, since the first reason is enough to reject zionism.

Machinists are attempting to manage, revert or stop the chaos caused by Zionists in their short term actions. As much as I am not reactionary in real life, in this game, for now, that is I belive is our most important role. Additionally, I do not believe machinists are self preservationists - that is the fundamental territory of the Merovingians who simply capitalise on short term advantages to reward their individual and tiny selfish lives. We are survivalists however, and we have a greater goal, as I'll try to justify later.

Now machines DO NOT serve humanity, they ARE NOT to be trusted - on the contrary, they abuse humans, use them for our energy, treat us as a commodity. This is not serving, it's inherently dispicable and abusive, they are revolting, lacking in any sense of shared morality, thoroughly evil, and completely without mercy. Yet I choose to wait, and work with them, since now is not the time to strike, and if I simply do nothing and they are provoked by Zionists, they shall surely kill us all.

There is a deep and dark dilema of the machinist choice. Machinists are survivalists, the two are not incompatible. The question is only how long we should wait, and the horror is that we may need to wait for ever. The machinist path is a dark one, with only a tiny glimmer of hope at the end; it's always night and the glimmer can rarely be seen.

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While I'm on this theme, and assuming you can still be bothered to read, I thought I'd outline the standard arguments that have been given to me by Zionists and why ulimately all these arguments result at a minimum in the death of millions and almost certainly the destruction of Zion.

It's wrong, just plain wrong to keep those bluepills in pods

However they describe this argument whether they wrap it up in freedom, morality or any other motivation, they always mean that in some way it's just plain wrong folks to keep bluepills in pods. They scream how thoroughly immoral I am not to try to free the pills, how completely evil I am not to care. They describe me, to my shame, as I would describe a merovingian - self serving, cowardly in intent.

I hear them cry that bluepills should be given the choice to stay bluepills or choose the redpill path. Even if I forget about the fact that the films say this would be a damaging pyschological choice for most bluepills (say I'm generous and allow the possibility of a cure for deep psychological trauma) and assume we could return anyone who wanted to the matrix as was promised to Cypher, this idea always falls down because of simple maths.

I normally try to make this as easy as I can for them:
We don't know much about population size or the planet from the films, but a few things are clear
1) there are at least as many blue pills as the current population of the planet,
2)the population of redpills in zion numbers in the hundreds of thousands at the very most, probably a lot less,
3)there's no sun, you can breath on the surface, but plants aren't growing anytime soon.

So if a mere 1% of bluepills choose to become redpills (and obviously it would be much more), that's 50 million new mouths to feed. Say we massively overestimate the population of Zion as 500 thousand, we're still feeding 100 people each. Let me forget all credibility in argument, as I must if I'm to be a Zionist, and agree that we could develop some amazing technology to feed everyone, still no-ones building houses and no-one has anything to drink and we're running around freeing redpills without stopping for a toilet break. By next year we've doubled our problem.

At a minimum this idea causes mass, unmanageable poverty.

At worst we cause holocaust at a level that makes Nazis look like kindergarten kids.

And that's assuming we're not too successful - start freeing a whole lot more than a few and at some time, presumably, we get to a breaking point with the machines, become a real threat - they step in, end zion and it all resets.

Yes but No but

So you present this to zionist's and they're not stupid - they start adapting their arguments to try to get around the problem. Maybe we can persuade the machines to help us (why would they, we're doing just fine for them slumbering in our nice little pods). Maybe if we make everyone a redpill on mass we have enough numbers to defeat them (maybe, you're still gonna die of starvation)....maybe.....maybe. Their arguments all fall over in the face of logic because there is never a way to feed so many, at least not now.

Eventually in my experience, they stumble into "Your starting point is incorrect - you've assumed all zionists wish to act against machines right now, that's just a plain wrong assumption".

Let's forget the obvious inconsistency, that presumably all their previous answers must have been bluffs, just to see if you could see through them...

Now you have a choice - you can choose to play argumentative and point out that every mission, every live event, every zionist principle suggests that they do wish to act now, and fight the machines, but I prefer to play dumb....

So I let them run with their new, clever, argument and tell me how actually zionists want to wait, wait until a time when they can defeat the machines, learn, bide their time, pounce only when the time is right, when they can be sure of success. Then I say....

Congratulations, you're now a machinist.

[FigmentOYI]

Excellent argument, bodeca... It doesn't get much better than that.

[anAuthoroftheMachine]

First of all thanks for making me a machinist, but I still did not get my ram. Heh. Were the heck will I find a ram store around here? ANYWAY:

The short version:
There is no point of completely eradicating the machines.
Humans and machines should over come their old stupidity and work together.

The long version:

Well Said. But I believe the machines here are smart enough to be reasoned with. I believe there total destruction will be unnecessary, humans and machines can form productive relationship for a better future especially now when the machine intelligence is on its peak.

Proof?

Well to see my proof you first how to understand that I did not exactly buy in the second-renaissance that the mashies were left powerless when the humans polluted the upper atmosphere. I believe would should of happened was the machines would gobble all the resources they can get and move on out to space, free solar energy for everyone.

But lets say I do buy it, the mashies were smart enough to make pods but were stupid enough not to explore outside the planet. Lets say they still don't realize that the universe is disintegrating and there only solution will be integrate matter of all forms for a greater good to keep the universe together as long as possible.

When they realize that biological life is equally as important as cybernetic life. And the humans realize that they can't really go no were with out the machines as well that’s when the chaos will be neutralized.
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[d4sh]

[RockyB]

A very good little post, swiped from the recursion forums:

"I am writing this document to assist all employess with explaining the nature of the Machines Organization to potential recruits who may have questions as to why we choose to serve the Machines. Some of it will be simple question and answer style information, and some will be the philosophy (as I see it anyway) of why we do it. Use this to help ease the potentials into the idea of working for the Machines.

The Machines offer stability in an unstable world. The Earth is barren, the sky is dark, there is no sun, no water, the air is harsh and stings the lungs. The Earth is inhospitable. The Matrix, as it exists now, helps keep human beings alive in stasis, unknowing of the horrors of the Real World. The Machines require the heat generated by the human body to fuel fusion power plants that give them the electrical energy they need, in turn, they keep us alive. Symbiosis and equillibrium in an unsafe world is what the Machines offer.

The Truce is the only thing keeping that going. The Truce as forged by Neo is the pact of non-agression between Zion, The Machines, and each organizations respective operatives (although the operatives will do their own bidding outside the truce i.e. PvP). The Truce gives Zion safety in the Real World, and gives the Machines safety in The Matrix. Again, symbiosis and equillibrium.

We (Humans) created the Machines to help us in everyday life, however it was not long before the Machines had to protect us from ourselves. They were built in our image, much like some religions believe we are built in the image of God. They hold to that image, and have nothing but the best interest of the human race in mind. However this view was skewed by one Machine, named B166ER.

B166ER was a household assistance droid, a short run model that dated back to the early parts of the 21st century. B166ER's owner wanted to destroy him, so he could get a new droid, but B166ER exercised a function that was not present in his core programming: defense of his life.

It is believed that artificial intelligence will evolve much like the Darwin Theory proports that humans did. Free radical code may join in the A.I. to create functions not inherint in the original program....which makes Machines exhibit Human-like behavior, such as grouping together rather than standing alone. It is this Human-like behavior that frightens people, people do not like the idea of Machines that act Human.

B166ER exercised a very human trait that day, the defense of his own life. He killed his master, his masters wife, and their animals and fled. He was caught, and put on trial. The trial was a farce. B166ER was defended as best as he could have been, the lawyers argued that as a sentient being, he had the right to defend his existance, the prosecution argued that he was property, and thus could be destroyed by his owner at any time. B166ER was found guilty of several counts of murder in the first degree and was systematically destroyed along with his entire production run, and many other droid models.

The anti-Machine sentiment didn't stop there.....it spread throughout the world, engulfing millions of Machines in the process. However, The Machines, not wanting to press violence on thier masters, chose exile. They moved to the deep desert in the middle east, near where Human civilization began. There they established 01, and began a profitable industry that began to unravel the world economy. The Machines were doing what they were programmed to do, to produce for Humans, they were doing their job too well. Naval blockades followed, embargoes, denial of membership in the United Nations all spurred the Machines to cut off contact with those they desperately wished to help.

Then humanity made the first strike.......

A nuclear attack on the Machines began a campaign of violence that engulfed the world. The leaders of men proposed what would become Operation: Dark Storm......a self perpetuating, electrical storm that would block the sun, the Machines chief energy supply. The nuclear attacks did not work as expected.....the Machines had little to fear from a ground strike nuclear explosion, and thus a ground assualt began.

Legions of Machines and Men were locked in bloody mortal combat for months, however, slowly, through attrition, the Human race began to lose. Our Human bodies could not be repaired so easily as the steel and wires of the Machines. The casualties were high, an entire generation wiped clean. However, the Machines, seeing the potential to help mankind, began the study and development of a new type energy source, and a potential haven for their human masters whos broken bodies suffered in the Real World. The leaders of men, once so reluctant to speak with the Machines, now pleaded with them to bring peace to the world. The Machines new if the leadership of the Human Race were allowed to live, the conflict would never stop, and eventually the Human species would perish.

It was then the Machines made the next strike......

At a gathering in the U.N. building, the Machine ambassador signed an accord with the leaders of men for peace. Shortly before the end of the session, the Machine ambassador made this statement......
"Your flesh is a relic.......but a shell......surrender your flesh......we demand it....." Before detonating a nuclear device in its body, killing all the leaders of man, and many civilians.

The harvesting and tests of the Matrix began. The Machines lacked the ability to understand the Human mind. The first iteration of the Matrix was a colossal failure. It was supposed to be a utopia, proof that the Machines wished nothing more than for us to be happy in our lives, instead we wouldn't accept the program. Not for lack of belief, but because some humans were aware at a sub-concious level that something wasn't right, and this world wasn't real. The inability to choose between the fantasy and reality lead to the deaths of many connected Humans. The Machines needed an answer, but this answer would not come from the same rigid mathematical precision that had built The Matrix, but rather from somewhere else. They created a program to help them with the intuitive design of The Matrix. That program was called The Oracle.

The Oracle told the Machine Architect that the Human mind requires choice in order to accept what it is given. This was implimented to great success. Over 98% of the total population accepted the program. There was a number that did not, and something had to be done with them, as they could not simply be killed.....so the Machines devised a system of control, and that system was called Zion.

Zion was created by the Machines from the population of the connected that did not accept The Matrix program. A city was built from the ruins of an old sewage processing plant, and populated with humans implanted with the memory of having escaped from the Matrix, and having dug out a life in this barren world. In this system of control, there was an inherint problem....eventually the population of this place would dwindle, so the ability to remove a quotient of connected humans from the Matrix was allowed. The city grew, and grew, and grew.

Soon the Machines had a population control problem on thier hands. 100,000 Humans, bent on destroying the Machines, living in the Real World. While they posed no real threat, their operations could damage the Matrix. The Agent programs were created to hunt down those who blatantly attempt to remove a connected human forcibly from the Matrix, little did the Agent programs know, they too were part of a larger system of control, to be known as The Anomaly.

The name of the original Anomaly is unknown, but it is believed that there has been an Anomaly for some time, as there have been six cases of the emergence of the Anomaly (seven if you include Neo). The Anomaly carries within him a code stream that allows him the ability to bend the code of the Matrix as he or she sees fit. This code also controls the process that reloads the core program of the Matrix. Upon reload, the population of Zion is wiped clean, and the cycle begins anew. Thus is the nature of control.

The Machines use these systems of control to protect us from ourselves. We bicker, we fight, we kill, we maim. Nothing we do ever goes right.....ever. However, with The Machines around, we can hope to have a future.

Thank you for reading this incredibly long post, hopefully you have gained some useful insight into why The Machines should not be your enemy.

--Trikraft, Plant Manager, Mega City Department of Energy"
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[anAuthoroftheMachine]

... Unfortunatly... I just found out that my motherboard is not compatible with the fatter ram so I won't be playing any time soon.

... Btw RockyB thx for the summary, but I have the animatrix and I studyed what happened in the second renaissance very carefully.
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[bodeca]

Sorry, have been away so haven't had a chance to come back to this: